Thursday, October 22, 2009

immunizations - simplifying.

Did you know that was the piece i was gonna choose?
Do i harp on it too much already?
i LOVED ALL of the comments yesterday - i know there were only 4 of you (at the time of this writing) - but i love hearing different perspectives.
i want to share the piece that simplified the decision about vaccinations for Neil & i & was ultimately the point that we were not willing to bend on.
First off, i *know* first hand how difficult it is to disagree in a marriage on "tough subjects". We're lucky, i think, in that vaccines are something that we agree on completely. In marriage, the beauty is in the give & take, the sacrifice & the love poured over it all when taking everything into consideration making a decision. For each family, that's gonna look different. For us, more times than not, because i am the stay at home mama & the primary care-giver for our little brood - & because it's in my personality & nature to do so - i will usually do most of the research on a given topic. i'll often bring bits & pieces of what i'm wrestling with to Neil & he'll offer his .02c ( he usually gives me something to balance out my thinking or to shift my reasoning away from dangerous, unfair conclusions... i really appreciate that about my non-passionate man). (Or, in the case of healthful food choices, i might try something different & offer a healthy alternative & he'll plug his nose & push his plate away :) But that's a whole 'nother post...)
In the end, vaccines became a prolife issue for us.
It seemed so unfair that little ones had been sacrificed - & so many would say for a 'greater good' - but the cannibalistic nature of vaccines using aborted fetal tissue was *the issue* that simplified the whole for us. The price was too high. There was a line... & it was crossed... & it became an issue that was easier to take a stand on for that reason.
i loved this article. The author was able to so clearly & gracefully make her point.
& then there was the vatican statement - you can read it here. (No, i'm not catholic... but while the protestant church remains relatively silent, at least the catholic church has taken a thoughtful stand on the subject...)
This website is specific to Canadian vaccines (we always assume it's happening in some other country- or not specific to the vaccines that we're offered - i know - i have the same wish...)
So, mamas - & papas too - keep wrestling... keep striving to be more like Jesus, keep listening to that still small voice. Maybe you'll choose to selectively vaccinate (obviously not all vaccines use aborted fetal cell lines) maybe you'll make the choice not to vaccinate, or to delay, or to continue on the recommended schedule. You'll never get any flames from me for choosing differently than our family - but it's becoming such a hot topic that i thought it might be worth my time to post some of the thought that has gone into some of our decisions as we continue to wrestle through the tough subjects that come our way.
You might see a disposable diaper on the bum of one of our offspring - or you might be served white bread if you come to our house. Maybe if you looked on the bottom of some random piece of plastic you'd find lying around our house, you'd find the sticker "made in China". There are so many, many things that our family has consciously or unconciously compromised on... but sometimes, the solution becomes plain - & an alternative path becomes obvious - & at those points, i want God to nudge me in a different direction. i don't want to be afraid to wrestle through & learn - slowly - to choose better.

ps - i'm including some of the other links that i thought were compelling. Neil told me to stick with my main point- to get the information out there - that aborted fetal cells were used in the creation of certain vaccines, so i'm just offering these as an afterthought...
This video will probably cover the majority of the medical reasons:

i haven't looked at these links in a looong time, they were stored away in my computer...
Here is a link with some of the ingredients:

Here is another good link that explains what some of the ingredients are:


Jen said...

I was hoping you would blog about this.
I know I wrestle with this...but Kellan is so far 'up-to-date' on his vaccinations. I don't feel great about that. I know I need to research more. The delayed or partial(?) vaccinations interests me. I think I'll go read the ingredients list and that might really change my mind.
I wish I researched more. But I am totally thankful for the research you do and that you pass it on to (lazy) me.

Lola said...

I've almost completely stopped discussing vaccinations with anyone due to the heated response it usually stirs. Good Articles. We chose not to vaccinate first for health reasons but I then found out about aborted fetal tissue being used and it only further affirmed our decision (we didn't need to much more affirmation though. We were confident in our choice) The idea that that baby is a baby just like my Alberta or Anna Kate infuriates me. I'm glad you know so much about the prolife aspect of it as I don't. If anyone has any questions about good sources for the medical aspect, email me because I've researched for 4/12 years now. Anyway, thanks for posting this and thanks for being brave enough too as sometimes I don't due to insecurity.

Oh, and Jen. I have a few excellent articles on delayed schedules from different physicians if you want them.

Anonymous said...

The local health nurse here in Sask. said that fetal cells weren't used -- I specifically asked because of what you'd posted previously about the topic. Wondering now if she is uninformed or misrepresenting the evidence... I don't know. I suppose it depends exactly which pharmaceutical company manufacturers the vaccine as they could all vary in their ingredients.... interesting you bring up this topic now when the big push is on to vaccinate all with the H1N1 flu shot. I wonder if that contains fetal cells or not...

I have always made sure the kids were fully vaccinated for all the childhood diseases as I'd hate to have my child die needlessly from menigitis or something that we could have prevented. However, I haven't been too worried about flu shots thinking, if you get sick you get sick, don't be paranoid!

Guess more research needs to be done and whatever the results it should be publicized more... I'd never heard about the possiblity of fetal cells being in vaccines from anyone else but you, so I guess the powers that be probably don't want people to know that's in their serum -- if it really is in the mix.


Jen said...

Nurses don't know what is in the stuff they give. They don't teach that in school.

deborah said...

Denise, fwiw, I had the same experience with some public health professionals who insisted that we in Alberta would NEVER have vaccines that were made from aborted fetal tissue. (until I educated them otherwise) :)

I'm going to through this out there too - Paige I hope you don't mind. My bro-in-law is a nurse and we had a few discussions about vaccines while he was here. I gave him my info and he took that to his colleagues. This is what was given to him in response:

I read through the nasty article and was appalled at its twisting nature and the gross can make your own conclusions. It certainly is a heavy topic...

I am choosing to trust my heavenly Father in the event that my children get sick with a fetally-produced vaccinatable illness.

paige said...

Yes, Deborah - i think i've read that exact article - & yes, the article is *right* in that the Vatican statement does leave room for parents to choose to vaccinate using vaccines that have been created using aborted fetal tissue. But, i agree with the Vatican statement that says that we need to continue to fight for ethical alternatives... This is my version of doing so. (& i think that article twists truth & presents a pretty version of some pretty ugly facts...)
The use of aborted fetal tissue to culture the vaccine is enough of an ethical paradox to make Neil & i run. i think that pharmaceutical companies who are willing to stoop to these levels cannot be trusted. My favourite article is the first one i posted on here... i think everyone who is prolife should read it.
Here it is again!!

paige said...

ok, D -
My understanding of the flu shot is that it is still cultured using chick embryos. Because they have been successful culturing with aborted fetal cell lines in the past & because they can do so much faster, and cheaper than using a single chick embryo for each vaccine, a lot of research has been going into using different cell lines for culturing these vaccines (for which there is obviously a HUGE demand). One that is showing potential is PER.C6 (google that & see what comes up...) from the kidney of an aborted baby. Because we haven't complained, they're going to continue to research using aborted fetal tissue & they're going to keep using it & keep the market for aborted fetal parts thriving.
i'm learning a lot today... :(

Lisa said...

Ugh, this is something i'm struggling with a lot right now. As you already know, all my kiddos are vaccinated up to date (except Isaac). When Isaac was born, I didn't like the idea of pushing all that 'yuck' into him so young. And had decided I'd re-evaluate at a year old. Well he's almost there, and I am more confused than ever now.

I don't disagree at all that the aborted fetal tissue in vaccines is gross, and unacceptable. But I don't feel the same passion towards the topic as you do ;) For me it isn't a prolife issue. At least not right now.

I still don't know what we are going to do, but I still lean towards vaccination, at least partial. Mainly because we both feel strongly about our children leaving the country to areas of the world that illness is much more rampant, and vaccines are much more needed.

Anyways I appreciate your insight Paige (and others!). And I'll still be praying and thinking before we make any decisions.

paige said...

Actually, i don't think i did know that, Lisa :)
Lola, who posted above offered advice on a delayed schedule... i'm afraid i don't have a ton of info on it as we've decided to just *not* vaccinate. i figure if the littles choose differently when they're older, we'll explain why we did what we did & they can always get them later (except now most of them won't need chicken pox since they'll have natural immunity now :)

Jen said...

Why did you title this post 'simplifyling' when it really isn't simple at all! :)

Carol said...

Just to add a little different perspective: a girl at our church whose family homeschools and chose NOT to vaccinate, was hospitalized with measles this past spring - she was a very sick little girl. Measles are not much of a concern in Canada anymore, because most of us choose to have our children vaccinated. This family had a trip to Disneyworld in Florida and the health unit traced the contact to someone from Europe who was also at Disneyworld.

If everyone in Canada were to choose NOT to vaccinate anymore, these diseases will return and most of them are way more serious than chicken pox.

Prvbs31Mama said... IS simple, for those who have already made the decision either
this is one area Jamie and I are totally at peace with and agree on..and we haven't vaccinated since Silas was the others haven't been vaccinated at all. For me, it is hugely a prolife issue, for Jamie, it's all the toxins that are present in them...I just posted about the H1N1 vaccine on my article by Dr. Mercola..pretty good. There are a bunch of videos on you tube by Alex Jones on vaccinating as well...check them out! I'll post them on my blog as well if any of you are interested...

Prvbs31Mama said...

I just noticed you are almost down to the double digits Paige!!! Yee Haw!!! I'm getting so excited to meet the new Beselt!!
Oh and I think I would have been surprised if this wasn't the first "wrestling" topic you
I love your passion!

Anonymous said...

I think the way our health system expects every child to be vaccinated that it would make me feel like I was a terrible parent if I didn't! Kind of peer pressure to comply... I imagine there are an awful lot of parent out there who don't research at all, but the kids are herded in for their shots a bit like cattle at branding time!

I also think if you are a public health nurse responsible for vaccinating hundreds or maybe thousands of children that they SHOULD be aware of what is in them - whether that is part of the curriculum in nursing school or not! Because of their position, parents trust their opinion and what they say so they SHOULD be making a point of becoming informed, if they aren't! Maybe it is a little different here, because we live in a small town so you get to know the same nurse on all the visits with all of your kids and so the nurse becomes more like a "friend" instead of seeing a different person every time you go in with one of your children. So you trust what they tell you to do - and if there is a big sign in the post office (like there was this fall - asking if your kids shots are up-to-date - you come home and quickly call to see if they are or not!) I am sure in the big city it would be a different person every time and not so one-on-one.

I think Paige is right - it IS a pro-life issue - but more of a "hidden" one than an abortuary being picketed or Morgentaler getting the order of Canada. It's much more subtle.

What repercussions have you had from not vaccinating. Do the health region "hound" you - sending you reminders that your kids are overdue or do they accept your decision and not put pressure on to comply. Just curious!

Denise in Sask.

paige said...

Well, i think that anytime i have had to take a child to emergency, i've had to go through our reasons for choosing not to vaccinate. i've had extremely negative reactions most of the time - (ridicule or fear mongering) - & sometimes i'm pleasantly surprised by acceptance. i think it would be wise to carry some compelling arguments in your purse - articles backing up your choice - because in a moment of vulnerability (your child is very sick) you don't want to waste time arguing with some pig headed resident over a choice that you have thoughfully considered from several angles.
Carol - yes, it's a tough choice that we make... & not one i take lightly. i know that there is a possibility that my chilren could get something that i could have immunized them against. No, it doesn't make me feel good - but when i've wrestled with it, i've found that i can't in good conscience call myself prolife & then gobble down the fruit of a poison tree, you know what i mean?

Lisa said...

I was actually pleasantly surprised when I had to take Isaac to the childrens awhile ago. On the triage form, it asked if immunizations were up to date, partially or not immunized at all. The nurse didn't even blink at it, and didn't say anything. She just confirmed 'he hasn't had any', and I said no.

Also the health nurse phoned our house shortly after the 2 month mark, and 'reminded' us. I told her we were not immunizing, and she tried to fear monger us a bit, but after I just said 'no i'm not comfortable with it' she noted it on our chart, and we haven't heard from them since.

Lola said...

Here we get the occasional letter reminding us that their shots aren't up to date. On Vancouver Island the health nurse called and asked if we would be vaccinating or not so they would know whether or not they should be bothering us with scheduling phone calls. I almost fell out of my chair.

In regards to the Measles (which I know sounds so incredibly scary to a lot of people)there is an incredible wealth of information that can be had about treatments for avoiding complications that are used where measles is much more prevalent. unfortunately, here doctors have no idea because they have really never treated it. If you check with the World Health organization about the necessity of Vitamin A during the illness you will find so much information and a really great program they have put into place. Vitamin A drastically reduces encephalitis, blindness, and pneumonia in measles patients to the point that high dosages are actually even given with the vaccine in many countries. Research it, it's amazing. There are also many studies showing the benefits that children have after recovering from the measles as far as immune response. It's almost as if it's a right of passage for our immune system. It's Really really incredible how God made our bodies!
Sorry, this is long. :)

Courtney said...

My heart trembles at writing a comment! I hate touchy subjects... especially in blog land. Talk to me one on one and I'm ok... but this is scary stuff. I feel like are family is at too much of a risk NOT to get the shots.... Still haven't decided though.

deborah said...

I'm loving reading these comments and this isn't even my blog. I had to jump back on here Paige, just to add some from my previous comment - about the article. My issues with it had nothing to do with the Catholic position on it, but more of the author's presentation. He parallels the donation a heart from one's dead son to the development of vaccines from an aborted baby - SO not the same considering abortion is a choice and (in most cases) having a dead child is not. And I also don't agree with 'something good comes out of murder' in this case - since I am looking at it from a prolife point of view - I don't believe one can justify the death of an innocent baby with 'saving' millions of lives. Anyways, I could go on...I guess I was irritated when reading it because the author does a fantastic job of confusing the reader towards thinking his arguments are good.

deborah said...

Now that said, I have selectively vax'd Neely (and delayed it too - read about Japan's experimental delay schedule and I was sold), but the reaction from her last (and only her second) time going will likely prevent me from returning.

And if anyone's child has the chicken pox..please send them my way. ;)

Lola said...

Ditto on Deborah's Chicken pox request.

Courtney said...

Hey Lola,
I was just reading your blog and saw your picture of Maria! I love Maria!!! Small world!!

paige said...

Courtney - Don't tremble with me! Like i said, no flames. What i really wanted to do, was to open up to discussion the use of aborted fetal tissue in culturing vaccines. That's why it's great that there is a lot of info out there on selectively immunizing... The powers that be, need to be working on ethical alternatives & instead, they are working on culturing a flu vaccine on aborted fetal tissue & combining vaccines together so that even ones that aren't tainted (tetanus) is unavailable to children unless they take a massive dose of other vaccines at the same time... That's unfair to people who believe in the sanctity of each and every life - who still might consider vaccinating if there were ethical alternatives.
Deborah - Thank you for clarifying that point... i read it again - & it does make me sad to see such a misrepresentation of truth. (fwiw, i don't agree with the vatican statement in it's entirety either - but i like to reference it because people don't even like to believe it's happening, and having the vatican weigh in, makes them take a second look).

Courtney said...

Paige! Love you too girl! Funny that I don't really care what's in the vaccines as long as Keziah doesn't die from H1N1 or any other diseases preventable from vaccination

.... my daughter's life is more important to me then being prolife I guess.. (and I'm not ashamed of that:) I'm not willing to loose my daughter(or son) to stand up for a 'cause.' No matter how wonderful that cause is!!

Having a special needs child has changed my view point on pretty much EVERYTHING!!

paige said...

i really, really appreciate your honesty, Courtney... i think for me, i'm not a member of the "anti-vaccine" cause... i'm just trying to do my best to listen to the Holy Spirit as he prompts. Prolife to me isn't a cause, it's a part of my life as a follower of Christ.
xoxo - (((hugs))) (trying to tread gently)

Courtney said...

You go girl :) Do as you feel led :)

mamazee said...

Denise :)
and anyone else wondering.
Public health nurses don't always know - nurses and doctors don't always know.
for us, with our second child, i heard about the aborted fetal tissue (from a nonreligious, medical source) and was horrified - then i found out that the vaccine i'd just had my baby girl immunized with was actually a form of a sexually transmitted disease (hep B - i'd thought it was the kind you get from drinking water in other countries!)...
Made me so heartsick.
But since then, in every place i've lived (that means Vancouver, Kelowna, Pincher Creek, Evansburg, and Hinton) i have brought the information to my doctors, their nurses, and to the health unit. I think these people deserve to know, and because of their job, they *need* to know so that they can inform others.
If you know the "code names" for the aborted babies, you can just ask them to show you the product insert for the vaccines, and they can double check that "ingredient" in their physician's desk reference book.
In every case, they have not known and have been shocked.
I have had some try to argue with me about the "good coming out of bad" but my pov is i don't want to benefit from someone else's murder. And i don't want my children to benefit from it either.
I do believe that God is with them, and me, in this choice - that He sides with the powerless and defenseless, and babies in the womb are certainly the least powerful people alive.
I am willing to take that risk. I know not everyone is, but i think sometimes just hearing someone say it aloud will help others think through exactly how they *do* feel. I don't want my children to die, but i don't want them to profit from another child's death, either.

mamazee said...

WI-26 VA4

these are some of the "code words" you can look for in the product inserts. Also - "human diploid cells"... i forget what else....

Lisa said...

Hey Deb, I would *love* the info on the delayed/selective vaccination that you have. :) I get so confused and flustered trying to find that kind of stuff.

Lola said...

Paige or mamazee (stephanie, right?) do you know if the tetanus immune globulin (given after a serious wound) is grown using aborted fetal cells? It's something we had always figured we'd use if our kids were seriously cut or had a suspicious puncture wound. I guess I'll try to track down where it's made and the info and check for the code works you provided.

paige said...

To the best of my knowledge, Tetanus is not tainted, BUT, you cannot get a child sized dosage in Canada that is not in a "group immunization" with other tainted vaccines. i wanted to get it one time when Peyton cut her foot on a piece of metal & my only options were to get the full dosage of vaccines, OR to give her the adult dosage of the tetanus. They would not order a child sized single dosage in for me, even though i offered to pay for it myself out of pocket. In the end, i felt like they were pressuring me, saying, "my way or the highway" - i prayed about it & ended up just leaving it. (Using polysporin & squeezing the wound so it would bleed out as much as it could).

Lola said...

Okay, so... here's what I found. The tetanus toxoid which is the vaccine given with either the Pertusis and diptheria or the adult single dose is different from the immune globulin which is actually the antibodies grown in a volunteer adult who has taken the single dose (not contaminated with fetal tissue) of Tetanus toxoid. you can give this injection of immune globulin intramuscularly after a suspicious wound and it is as effective as the actual vaccine. It also has no preservatives and is the only thimerosal free version of a tetanus vaccine. It's available in Calgary but it takes a lot of questions and searching to get it because most nurses haven't used it before.

Grace F. said...

I'm commenting on a post way up on the list - about the child who got measles because she was unvaccinated, and was in contact with a carrier at Disneyland.

Please note that a few years ago there was a measles outbreak in Calgary in the public school system, among all the vaccinated children. It was so severe that the started a program to revaccinate students again.

So to imply that vaccinated children will not get the disease for which they are vaccinated is not a truism.


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